disenchanted

I'm sorry, and I love you.

Me too.

The experiment will have a beautiful outcome.  And it won't be ending any time soon…

The silent majority is intrigued and playing with the idea, sending seeds left and right.  Let's focus on them.

Let the neurotic just be.  We can't transform their sensitivities into happiness, no matter what we do. 

We can give those already happy, or ready for happiness, the gifts to become even more so.  :) 

So what's next?

Hi Jake,
I love you, too!  The seed system touched some areas within me. I realize I have some wounds that need healing and I would not have known this without the implementation of this system. I suspect the same may be true for others. I sincerely Thank YoU for this opportunity to grow! 

I went to a leadership conference and the speaker gave a scenerio where people receive ten comments, nine positive and one not. He stated that studies show we tend to remember the not. Ouch,  my fear with the seeds is to get the not. 

Some food for thought, studies also show that those who scream the loudest are the most wounded; moreover, some of us may have projected onto you (and other zaadz team members) our own hurt.   Lots of hugs and healing love to all of us!

Some members mentioned we should have been told and had an opportunity to look at this new project before it was launched.  I don't think we could have known the extent of our feelings without experiencing this. Theory and application are two different entities.  Perhaps a pilot group of volunteers, randomly selected if possible, could be put in place.  

As for the seeds, what do we do now?  I like the idea of people giving me a seed for a blog they appreciate.  I could then see how many appreciation seeds I have on a particular topic.  As for the “flag as inappropriate” I believe you all are working or now have in place that people must give their reasons for the flag.  I once had a student give me an anonymous evaluation where they blasted me, my teaching, and the course.  I was hurt.  I felt personally attacked.  I did not find this constructive at all, just a lot of venom spewing.  Therefore, I think in providing the reasons, the person giving the flag is held accountable and must accept responsibility for their opinion while the person receiving will have a learning tool and be given the opportunity to see, if in fact, what they have written needs some additonal thought. 

Thank you so much for your (and the zaadz team) openess, willingness to hear, and  quick response to adjusting the seed system.

May we all continuing growing in love, patience, and compassion!
 

Hugs and peaches,

Sprite 

:D  http://videos.zaadz.com/286096/metallica_-_bad_seed

I think this is a really intriguing idea - I also agree with galtenberg that there is a “silent majority” - most people, I think, are just playing with this to see how it works.
This is a community of people who have a lot of experience with not fitting in and with being judged negatively…give them all a minute to play with a new toy and see how it works. I'm guessing that once people realize it isn't going to hurt them and they get the power to be nice and give away good juice, it's going to smooth out.
But it isn't about you, and I so appreciate the efforts of the people who build all the cool toys.
Thank you!

 And I must say here just like I said to Siona, that I feel insulted that you think because people have such strong negative feelings about this that we are “angry, so vehement, so quick to judge. ”
 Don't take it personally, just LISTEN to what people are saying and hear it in a way that you aren't judging it with your own prejudices….it has nothing to do with us being “empowered” ….I won't go into why it is upsetting to some of us…it has been written already by many, many others…
 Just change it or amend it or get rid of it….
 Thanks for letting me say my peace…

 May ALL beings live without suffering

Oh Jake. You got me at the Hawaiian healer. Well you got me before then, but it was signed and sealed by that. I know of him and his work and spread it around as much as I can. Anyone who mentions it gets ALL my seeds ( I would if I could).

I'm sorry and I love you too.

Sandra

ps. If anyone is interested in the healing process mentioned see http://www.hooponopono.org/

Jake,

The system–in the form in which it was released–reflects some basic realities of life that raises some people's worst fears; the assessment of critical review of and accountability for our stated beliefs.  However, I was NOT under the impression that Zaadz was intended to be an escape from life, but an environment in which life's dynamics are replicated so that we can experiment with different approaches to the living/creating of it.  Sure, there are a few people on here who are crying like little children about the seed system, but I propose that resistance and complaining is probably their typical response to life in general.  Let's weather this storm and if people leave, so be it.  I know it will not be a mass exodus; note the previous comment regarding the “silent majority.”

We'll soon find out if “Zaadzters” are the great people that they're cracked up to be by the way they handle this newly awarded responsibility.  Siona repeatedly states that the power of moderation has been placed in the hands of the participants and it seems like there is quite a bit of fear related to that responsibility.  Better to find out now than later if this community has the collective maturity necessary to practically step up to the challenge offered in the Zaadz Mission Statement.

The people that remain I'll be able to count on as partners in dealing with the major spiritual, social, and environmental challenges that accompany life outside the Zaadz-shram.  In the meantime, I'll keep on keeping on, Zaadz or no Zaadz…

Don't sweat the small shit!

Manny

Bottom line, I guess you discovered that “spiritual” people can be just as neurotic, egotistical, conditionally loving (or not) as anyone else. We’ve got a long way to go. When people start attacking like that, its time to pull out the NVCommunication tools (google it).

I have been designing a game that helps communication on many levels beginning with the conversations one has with self. I hope to find a publisher willing to take the project on. Reef or Madness enables the player to gage their social-abilities, learn to use innate powers of perception, observation, etc. to become a king of the sea and have a much better time of life on the surface with other creatures… for that is all we are, just like those in the sea, who happen to live, a lot more peacefully!

ROM

“my goals were to…
…provide a system that allows the community to 1) elevate helpful, thoughtful, inspiring content, 2) De-emphasize unhelpful, abusive or negative content, 3) provide a meaningful way of measuring reputation within the community and 4) provide a positive feedback channel among members and Zaadz administration”

Fair enough.  I am sympathetic as to your aims, my friend.

Opinions are devastating -but my own are, you should have left it the way it was.  The Zaddz team should have left it the way it was. 

This brown-nosing popularity contest that has ensued is beyond rediculous!

Mods having the ability to 'see' how one stands in the popularity stakes?  Holy G-d.  If that is so NOT-ZAADZ I have no f**king idea what is. 

Be well. 

The failure is not in the creation of the concept, but in the corporate failure to apply a marketing stategy to the end product.  The effect not only impacts Zaadz members, but also Zaadz/Gaiam advertisers and investors (who  just hate it when the market begins to percieve their product in a negative light).  It also effects employees with stock options; GAIA has taken a beating of the past two days.

Did you conduct focus groups with a wide spectrum of  users to see how the concept might recieved by users at-large?  Those focus groups would have told given you product feedback now in a safe and controlled environment, with no detrimental consequences.  It would have allowed you to make substantial number of improvements and refinements, or decide whether it's wanted at all, before going live with things.  There are pre-release activities that could have been implemented.  Good marketing practices helps a product be a success as soon as it hits the shelves.  But that didn't happen.

I can't say that the damage control was any more effective.  Zaadz staff came off looking hassled and defensive, when they weren't sounding condescending and completely disconnected from why the mainstream opinion was forming.  In marketing, you anticipate potential customer objections and develop responses to them.  Did you ever have those discussions?  I can guess the answer to that one.  “Trust” was the last thing to come to my mind when reading a Zaadz comment.

My point is that none of this had to happen if Zaadz knew how to run a business, or at the very least knew how to bring a product/feature into the market .  There lies my disenchantment: how am I supposed to take someone seriously about “changing the world” when they can't kick a product sucessfully out the door?  If Zaadz is going to consider itself an “ongoing experimenmt,” they are going to find themselves outpaced by competitors who conduct themselves like the real thing.

I think what you have done is a step towards true democracy and you are, with this system perpetrating the very basic ideals of the forefathers of our nation (I will not say great nation though perhaps it could be should the values like these be truly upheld).  

Those who oppose, perhaps need a big hug.  Its ok, we all have things within ourselves that we judge to be unworthy, and perhaps even ugly, but this is not a judgemental place.  Its a place that love is abundant, and growth applauded, and encouraged.  And even our faults must be acknowledged for true change.  

Must we first experience the oppressive taxes and unnatural requests that a far away entity chooses to lay upon us before we again voice our opinions against such entities?  When they hand us our right, because we are responsible for our actions, are we to hand it back like children afraid to take the blame? 

I hope only to inspire, and say “you have a voice, and you have not only the right, but the responsibility of raising it when the occasion arises that there is an injustice”

Silence is the enemy of change.

Jake, and Zaadz, I believe that you are trying to hold up a mirror so that we can all see ourselves is relation to how others see us.  It definitly increases that idea that in our individual spheres we are not the only thing or person or entity that exists.  THe truth is, we all have a reputation already, and if enough people have been preyed upon or jaded by a certain person, then it is the responsibility of the WHOLE community to make a stand and stop the perpetrator,and for the community to deliberate whole heartedly and with care, about such decisions.

  To make the administrators the only people responsible for this decision is asking not to be responsible, not to take part, and not to be involved.  YOUR VOICE MATTERS!!!  That is not something to be feared, but to be celebrated! 

The more I think about it, the more I want to give you a big kiss and dance and be merry, you have confirmed that even the meek of heart would be able and encouraged to have a word, to say what they need to, but also, to take to heart the responsibility of that voice. 

I personally think you, Jake are innovative, creative, definitely one of the most sensitive souls I have had the pleasure of meeting.  If this is not a place to encourage such endeavors and eradicate the fears of rejection, then perhaps there is no place?

Besides, its not rejection, this system seems to allow the ability to be told that should I post some things that people dont like or are offended by, to allow me to reevaluate what I have written, its values, and actually think about the effect on others.  I think that is a gift

Thank you, Jake. I have a lot more in the way of support of this idea, and I am certainly intrigued…

The mirror is up, and the more mirrors there are, the better chance that everyone will look into it, and see and find the places within that we each may come to believe needs work, or change, or expansion.  And there is nothing in the mirror that is so abominable, and so disgusting that it could cause the dismissal or even the diminishing of Real Love.

Kiso, we don't think like “marketing strategists” - and that's why people like it here. 

And please, the Gaiam/stock angle is completely irrelevant, so let's not start on that meme.

I hope our competitors do the full “marketing and product development” rigamarole.  We're going to stay us.

Wow!  I went away for a week in the woods and came back to a firestorm.  I'd better stay home from now on.  ;-)

My two cents worth:

1.  Don't worry.  I love you too.

2.  We here at Zaadz are different.  We'd better be.  If I didn't think so I'd have already packed my bags and gone elsewhere.  But the broad brush-strokes that paint any community will reflect the background culture.  Same here.  Many people will act and react with insufficient information and incomplete thinking.  Again, same here.

3.  I worked for years in IT, and there seems to be a strange resistance to change on the part of systems users that may not be reflected in other areas of their lives.  Something to do with perceived investment in the old way or something.  Lincoln's quote about pleasing or not pleasing people is definitely applicable.

4.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

5.  I agree with a common thread above - give it time.  The number of people who are truly put off by this will turn out to be vanishingly small - and then they will vanish.

6.  I read on some pod (forgot which) about the idea of testing new features using Ambassadors or a pool of volunteers.  Put me down as agreeing with that.  Feedback and modification are then more easily managed.

7.  Anyone who experiences the ongoing changes at Zaadz and decides that they just don't fit is free to decline participation whenever they choose.  Maybe a 'classic view' vs. 'new view' akin to blogspot's roll-out last year - something they say will continue to be available going forward.

8.  I appreciate you and your work.  Keep on keeping on……

Albert

Jake,

i admire you for posting this heartfelt message on your blog. i know how hard you worked on this system, making sure that it turns out as one of the best (and most fair and secure) trust system that are out there. so i feel your disappointment.

as you mentioned, we always listen to our members and make the necessary adjustments based on their feedback. it's our task to balance things. and i think that we as a team are doing the best that we can. so no need to get disenchanted.

i know it's hard not to get emotionally affected since we have so much passion for this community, but it comes with the territory. it's up to us to take deep breaths, separate the constructive criticisms from senseless dissent, let the emotion pass, and carry on as best as we can.

having said that, i'd like to point to a member who's open to what we're doing:

“What is needed is not opinion at all, but constructive ideas on how to find the diamonds in the rough, how to make certain that the seeds system is democratic and intuitive in organizing its information and how to encourage participation in organizing the vast fathoms of information and action-oriented communities on the internet. To that, Zaadz has always been open and the internet as a whole desperately awaits the solutions to these organizational problems amongst community-building websites.”

my two cents.

keep it flowing….

~C

While I'm not a supporter of the new system, I certainly don't think there was any ill will or devious scheme behind it being created. In fact, from what I've seen from the zaadz team they have very good intentions and are wonderful people. 

Oh and Jake, I have mad respect for you after reading your very heartfelt post!!  

Thanks for writing this,  Jake.  The truth of the matter is, is you made an attempt to empower the community with a step towards democracy and choice– and well, not everyone can handle that.  Many did not even bother to read clarifications– they were in it for the drama of it.

But the system you built here is genius, and I do look forward to people giving their seeds away– and look forward to the most inspiring content on the site rising to the top. :)  Good job– and don't take any of that banter too personally. ;)

Good post, dude. I'm sorry for all the shit you've had to endure over this. Nothing worse than having lots of people diss your baby.

It all worried me a bit, to be honest, but my attitude has been sort of “wait and see”… and in the meantime, I'm still having fun with my friends here, and spreading them Big Love seeds around.

However it works out, thanks very much for your hard work on all this.

“All shall be well. All shall be well. And all manner of thing shall be well.” – Julian of Norwich

Jake, I just want you to know that I admire and love you too! You are amazing. I am so inspired by your hard work and your brilliance. You are so compassionate and kind, you have shown that time and time again, and you have given so much to this community.

Thank you for being here and all you do. I hope that everyone here can appreciate your efforts and all you have done to make this site possible. You have been instrumental. I admire your candor in this blog and your non-attachment to the system (which I happen to think is great) you worked so hard to create. I know something good will come of this and that we will learn a great deal.

Thank you.

Hang in there… we still love you!  I've spread my seeds, given to those in need, hoarded my seeds and spread them some more.  It will all settle down in time.  Sometimes change is painful because it is human nature to fear change.  Keep your chin up and don't get discouraged!

Thank you Jake for posting your heart-felt response to the last few days. I am reminded of the difficulty we have sometimes in separating the outcome of our intent from our intention. I read about the “seed system” with curiousity and liked the idea of finding a way to enhance our communication. However, I am relatively new to zaadz and have little invested in “the world as we have know it” and I compassinately listening/reading the responses from other community members.

What would happen if we all took a step back, breathed and said “How  interesting! What has been intended seems to be experienced in a different way.” and then went on to say “With full integrity - lets move forward, observe and determine the next step” - and we only need to determine the next step in our change process… because with each step we take in our commitment to change the world — is still a step in the right direction. With loving respect to you Jake and the zaadz team. Hang in there. I believe that together we can do anything! Terrill

I love your post Terrill. It advocates that Beginner's Mind. I think it's a great strategy.

Hi Jake,
Thank you for opening up and sharing your heartfelt disenchantment with us.  I for one think that the seeds are an interesting idea and have started sharing my seeds.  I enjoyed spreading love around and planting seeds, which is a part of what Zaadz is all about, it is why I'm here.  I LOVE ZAADZ!!!!!!!  I think that there is a quiet majority that is already spreading seeds, and I agree with other posts that the loudest opposers to the seed program are the ones that have personal issues with the potential of not receiving seeds or in some way being judged.  When I read the description that was thoughtfully written and throughly explained, I thought “what a neat idea” and started thinking about ways of sharing and collecting seeds.  I think it is a great way to get people to be a little more active on the site.  While I think that it might have been helpful to get the Ambassadors involved before launching the program, we all know that hindsight is 20/20.  Even though there seems to be quite a bit of unrest regarding this, I think that this storm will pass and your “baby” will fare just fine and even start thriving wonderfully.  Try not to take people's rants too personally and look for the constructive messages.

Everyone keep planting seeds of love.
Bright Blessings ~Paula

Jake,

I feel for you buddy.

~Duff

Jake, you are one of the most compassionate people I know.  I love you.  Your code is genius.  There's absolutely no way I can show you my gratitude for everything you do for this community.  But as I have posted on my profile, it was you who said, ”We're not just building tools for people, we're building them for incredible, amazing, wonderful people!!!”

I am saddened that many of those incredible, amazing, wonderful people didn't understand the Heart that wrote the TR system.  I hope they will learn more about you and some of your unbelievable code!  And I also hope more people will take the time to understand new systems before jumping to conclusions.  I love this community.  And I also felt hurt by many of the reactions.

Jake!  I love you, too!!  I think you have created a wonderful tool here and I am eager to see how it grows!  It is amazing how many of us on the team do put our hearts out there to the entire community without them knowing fully what it means to hear this feedback.  And especially people like you… the “behind-the-scenes” wizards who make this all possible… SO much love has been put into each 1 and 0 … I feel it everyday and am eternally grateful to you for all that you've done to make this experience enjoyable!  Please keep your head up… you have done nothing wrong!  And I'll say it again…. I love you, too!

Jake and those other dear folks on the Zaadz team,
I am sorry you are hurt and discouraged.  I hope you can find my little comments in that blizzard of reactions.  I am sure the method of presenting your hard, well-intentioned work allowed little kindness towards you at all.  For that I am sorry.  Yet, those of us who truly care about the well-being of the community also are folks who often think very deeply and carefully.  Hard, painful lessons sometimes can prepare the soil of creativity and giving for even greater good, more beautiful flowering and growth. 

I am thankful the negative reaction possibility was removed so quickly.  That was my first objection for reasons I stated originally in my comments to Siona.  I understand your reasons but had to question your method for those kinds of opportunities. 

Please try to understand that true compassion does not accept without question.  Often, those who are most compassionate see most clearly and will endeavor to speak gently what they see and hope for.  It's tough to take, I know.  Please don't give up. 

I am in the unique and privileged position of seeing Jake as he is “behind the scenes.”  We met on Zaadz a year and a half ago when I was still in Japan.  When I came back to the States, he was the number one person on my To See list.  His authenticity, big-heartedness and caring is only amplified when you meet him in person.  I read his blog and follow his progress on Zaadz and I know that each and every line of code he writes is written with love.  When the personal attacks began, I wondered how he would hold up.  He's done great.  He's responded in a way that I think most of us can learn something from.

Just this week someone close to me reminded me about my own practice with NVC (Nonviolent Communication) that I started in Boulder last year.  I'm a pretty fierce Leo, a “judger” in the Myer's Briggs test and am known all over the globe for speaking my mind.  What I'm working on right now (not just through NVC, but through mindful speaking practice and simply bringing awareness to my interactions) is speaking my mind in a way that's both truthful and gentle.  What I've read in the forums about the trust system (and much of it, whether indirectly or no, has been directed at Jake, the chief technologist behind the architecture of the system, without which there would be no system) has lacked a fundamental desire to connect with others from the heart.

If there's anything I've taken out of my interactions with Jake in nearly two years, it's this:  communicating from the heart is crucial to building trust.  In order to learn trust, we must continue the dialog, certainly.  Keeping in mind that communicating from the heart and with heart means learning to communicate in a skillful way.  May we all continue the work of being skillful communicators. 

And please remember, every time you access a page on Zaadz you turn the wheel of compassion.

Jake wrote: 

I wrote the accursed “Trust system” that's the topic of so much debate on the site. 
So I'm taking it all pretty personally.

Jake:

In all situations like this one there is a gift for us if we look for it.  I am so sorry for the behavior and attacks you have experienced; I understand how our egos can take that sort of stuff as fodder for continuing to beat ourselves up. 

However, perhaps the gift in the situation is to realize that the behavior of others is their behavior to own.  It comes from their own anger, fear, desperation, worry and insecurity.  Do you know who you are?  Do the words they write to you out of their own egos resonate with you and mesh with what you know about yourself?  Why is it that we tend to respect the opinions of others over what we know to be true about ourselves and our intentions?

Honestly, I don't know how I feel about the seed system.  As a teacher, I see it as an extrinsic reward system like gold stars or sticker charts, and I know I don't like the results of those sorts of systems.  I've learned to trust my gut, and when I read about the seed system, but gut turned all queasy.

But:  I do know that you and the rest of the Zaadz team have done this with the best of intentions, that there is no malice or subversive action on your part, and that I certainly don't have all the answers.  I'm willing to try it and see what happens and provide my honest feedback on the SYSTEM and not its creators.

Remember who you are at your core, and set aside those opinions and attacks that don't jive with what you know to be true.

Ellen

Jake, what you built was amazing…

What you built helps bring democracy and a level playing field to Zaadz…. in the long run it well help bring out the good.

Those that call you a fascist…need to look deeply in the mirror, and guard the glass house they live in… some of the comments have simply amazed me… references to Hitler? please….give me a break!

A fascist would not engage and encourage discussion as you have… Hitler would not engage in discussion… he would merely “lineup and execute”

Here members have a voice… there are many websites that do not even allow there visitors to speak…Zaadz allows so much more than that… and I wish some members would think about that before they typed such harsh criticism….

You are owed apologies by many…

Those that are loud now… are loud for there fear of being quiet later….

Your intentions where and are (and always have been from what I can tell) good…. so keep following them!

So now I ask…. is there a way I can give all my seeds to your post? becuase it's among the best I have seen in a long time :-)

Keep on Keeping on! Chin up my man!

continue your good work, the best you know how.

~definitive

Jake,

You and the Zaadz team have created a great site.  This is where I post my poems.  This is my online community.  This is the place I've chosen because I think it's better than any other place in the blogosphere.

If you never make a mistake then you're not doing anything.  The mistake here is that you didn't understand how huge this particular change is.  I'm stil not convinced that you guys understand why it's such a big deal.  I still don't think you get it.  So, in my opionion, that's the potential learning experience for you, this is an aspect of human-ness that you do not understand.

I read these comments and I see:

“Let the neurotic just be”, and
“I agree with other posts that the loudest opposers to the seed program are the ones that have personal issues with the potential of not receiving seeds or in some way being judged”
“Sure, there are a few people on here who are crying like little children about the seed system, but I propose that resistance and complaining is probably their typical response to life in general”

If that's what you hear then you are going to miss the real lesson of this fiasco. 

I stand by what I've said about this:  it's tacky and unartful.  I read a book, I think it was Joseph Heller, where one of the characters who's lost in his corporate world and his corporate mindset views everything that happens tohim as either “a black eye” or “a feather in his cap”.  That's what you've created here.  I say something everybody likes and I get a feather in my cap.  I say something people don't like and I get a black eye.

But that's not why so many people are so upset.  This strikes at the heart of our psychological machinery.  Human beings are complex, and we are a complex subset of the general human community.  Think about it.  Understand, for yourself, why this is such a big deal.

Again, it's just a mistake, and I feel for you, brother.  You didn't know you were striking a match in a gasoline factory.  That's what you did, though, and it blew up in your face.  I do so hope you and the Zaadz team will learn the right lessons from it,  because I like what you've created for us  here and I'd like to stay.

One more thing, and I'm done.  I don't understand why we need “a meaningful way of measuring reputation within the community”  nor do I understand how this system will cut down on whatever trolls there are here (I haven't experienced any myself).  I don't see what was wrong with the way things were.

Dear Jake,

First of all, please stay calm, if possible; there is always calm below the stormy waves of the ocean.I admire the way you and Siona and C4 and Matthew and ….have been reading and responding to us all.

I have been sharing my knee-jerk, second  ractions and now suggestions regarding this idea, after reading many on the Think Tank and other pods and blogs. I would appreciate your taking  a look at it. . http://pods.zaadz.com/thinktank/discussions/view/206648#206648

There are some issues that Siona and you have raised that just don't seem possible with the Seeds system:
you say we'll be able to moderate by preventing people from coming in who're spammers - how will this work?
I've asked other questions on the link above, with my suggestions, and hope you wil answer it there.

Thank you.

I would say the vast majority of zaadzsters joined here because we were inspired  by the goals and intentions of the creators of zaadz. I'm still inspired by zaadz/gaia. Look what they PAID $$$$ you to develop. If that ain't putting their money where their mouth is……

 …provide a system that allows the community to 1) elevate helpful, thoughtful, inspiring content, 2) De-emphasize unhelpful, abusive or negative content, 3) provide a meaningful way of measuring reputation within the community and 4) provide a positive feedback channel among members and Zaadz administration

So the roll out didn't go well and you hit a few bumps? Ok, maybe a few huge ones. So now the team pulls together and gets to work  to smooth  things out. The admin, the community, everyone, working through the bugs and the feelings. (look at how improvements were put in place within less than 24 hours! Now THAT's hopeful too!)

Jake, I appreciate both your efforts and your system. I think it will work out just fine.

This is a strain it is. I appreciate the thought and effort that Jake and the Zaadz team has gone to. Jake, I mean no harm in any way to you, for whom this must be difficult. However, here are my feelings on the new system’s effect.

I don’t care for the new system. I enjoyed Zaadz the way it was before. There was what seemed to be a level playing field––with no distractions for us, the members, to be forced into a system of implementing any form of grading and assessing other than our direct comments left, as contributions, on the Pods (or blogs) as we felt were relevant. Personally I don’t want to be involved in the system you’ve contrived. This is my preference. That doesn’t mean, as another pointed out, that I’m rebelling or caustically commenting and immediately running off. But in this well intentioned democratic, voice-of-the-people, installation of this Seed System, it does not appear to be being received very well.

I’m not concerned emotionally with the concept of being judged as some have pointed out may be happening among some members. However, the system employs designs which are intentioned to remove a person’s voice––if not altogether, in significant and sufficient measure so as to make this site very unappetizing. I don’t care for (as I understand it now) people not having an ability to post (if this is a correct interpretation); their comments disappearing (being ”folded”) to certain sects of Zaadz without having to click on their semi-hidden (“folded”) contribution; nor for their profiles to be hidden to those same certain sects (“non-members”).

I have enjoyed the open forum, spontaneity, vitality and intelligence––wisdom––in which all of our dialogues have emerged and developed. I enjoy the constellation of divergent thought––and I really dislike the thought of my access to any material being expunged because it wasn’t sufficiently popular, even by democratic opinion. And I don’t wish for my exposure to be limited for any reason either––unless the Zaadz administration finds it truly inappropriate. Prior to the implementation of The Seed System, to my knowledge no one received any kind of assessment, elevation or relegation––or “folding,” unless it was directly commented upon on the blog, or in a private email with another Zaadz member, or if their comment or profile was thought sufficiently inappropriate that the administration removed it or their profile. We already have a means for finding the ”Latest” and ”Most Popular” Pod discussions on the Pods home page. This already promotes, through a natural order, what was hot––through being good, appreciated, controversial or important.

We had what I call free speech in a simple straight forward form. I enjoyed Zaadz the way it was. I don’t want to be burdened with or affected by this system of elevation and/or relegation, no matter how ingenious and well intentioned it may be. It in itself is not popular, which is self-evident and stands on its own. Please turn off the Hal 9000. I remember being invited to Zaadz, with Zaadz’ initiatory concept of being offered the Red Pill as Neo swallowed in The Matrix––I like the unrestrained, truth-in-the-raw old paradigm, without any user-imposed filters.

Truly with love and respect to all.

I like the Trust System.

I think it is reflective of cutting-edge, progressive thinking and reflective of the intention to implement such in a positive way.

Unfortunately, it is often not the case that we fully realize the meaning of “cutting-edge” until, without maybe even knowing it, we are actually in the process of cutting that edge, and whoa, holy crap, next thing you know … well, …

Look, I'll be honest. I feel very deeply for all the folks and admin. at zaadz, and for Jake, for having to go through this. Unfortunately, attempting to cut that edge just isn't very easy at all. For the first time, at leas that I can see (and I've only been her ayear and so maybe I haven't seen everything), zaadz has officially been granted it's first “carpet burn.”  And there's no two ways about it, it really sucks.

I know the beauty that you saw behind this system, and I'm pretty sure plenty of other people know it too, for it is reflective of their own ways of thinking, their own views of life, self and the world. And that's why we came here. But, well, I wish I could say there's no reason why it should all not be smooth sailing, but unfortunately, that's just rarely the case. That is, when you really try to go for it.

I think the “bad seed” thing could have used some rethinking, but you know what? I also think it was/is very brave. Not only to take that risk of opening the community up to what COULD be potential abuse -and doing so in the name of REAL TRUST - but brave in the sense of allowing yourself and the community to say: guess what? Maybe, no -maybe you SHOULDN'T always have a voice. Maybe you SHOULDN'T always get your fair say. Maybe you SHOULDN'T always be able to speak and say and do whatever you want. Maybe, just maybe, tere are time when, guess what, you just might be a bad seed. And you SHOULD be fully and 100% accountable for that.

My estimation is that everyone who has NOT complained knows that. They know that sometimes, perhaps it's better just to shut the old yapper. Sometimes, it's just better to zip it, be told no one wants to listen, and be told no one is going to stand for that -whatever you may be saying or doing.

With that, I suppose I will now hold my peace.

I think the system is good.

Flaws? Sure. Always. It's new. It needs to be put into practice.

But it certainly does not deserve the reaction it has been getting.

So? Hold your ground, as painful as it may be to do so.

Cutting edges is just not always easy.

In support.

One community member.

Jake…

I repeat…I only feel that the community should have been a part of the decision making and enforcing process.

I know that you worked hard on this with “all intentions of providing a system that allows the community to 1) elevate helpful, thoughtful, inspiring content, 2) De-emphasize unhelpful, abusive or negative content, 3) provide a meaningful way of measuring reputation within the community and 4) provide a positive feedback channel among members and Zaadz administration.”

I commend you on all the hard work and thought you put into it. It is terrible that you have had to endure much  “mud slinging' and disrespect. Needless to say, I am shocked at some of the postings. Some were filled with fears and insecurities. I regret that you were the target of such outburts. 

I don't know if the seeds will fly or die. Either way is not a concern to me. I stated my only concern.

Hey neighbor Jake,
Hey community,

I am amazed that some of the disenchanted continue to sling mud and complain that the zaadz admins are trying to silence us, especially since it has been brought to the attention of all here (numerous times) that previous to the launch of the Trust System, an individual could be effectively silenced (or far more likely, reminded of their responsibilities to the community) by an elite few. If they wanted to have the exclusive power to silence you, they would not hand that power off to the community.

There is no such thing as absolute immunity in a culture that values responsibility. We all must be willing to be held accountable for our choices and actions, if we wish to live in a culture that is evolving towards genuine democracy. And we must also be willing to hold others accountable for their actions. It's not supposed to be easy and light and perpetually free of conflict. A system that refuses to attribute gradations of value and to make ethical, rational, and aesthetic distinctions is a system that does not value our deepest Being nor encourage its continuous revelation.

But let me make clear that I understand the temptation to feel betrayed by a system of evaluation. When you have suffered the wound of not being inherently valued and honored, of not being recognized as inherently worthy (and I believe most of us in the postmodern world carry this cross), all systems/philosophies that assign value seem suspect and potentially corrupt. The key is to see that your essence is beyond all judgement and evaluation; it is simply and luminously perfect and incorruptible.

An operational system that doesn't take into account in its design not only the inherent goodness and worth of all members of the community but also the shadow element of the human psyche and its inevitable and common expressions, is, IMO, naive and unsustainable.

I believe that Jake considered these things in his invention and design of this system, and yet of course, a system as ambitious and enlightened in its intentions as this will necessarily be flawed. I appreciate the helpful criticism of the system offered by some of those who had some specific comments and suggestions to make. David's original point is salient: that people (all of us, zaadzsters are not in the least exempt from this condition) have shadows and as a result will sometimes (count on it) use their powers irresponsibly (anonymous negative seeding, for example). I think the zaadz team recognized the validity of his point, were responsive and responsible, and they changed the system immediately.

A system where judgment has NO place is not enlightened, it's delusional. Freedom from evaluation is not responsibility and enlightenment, it's an attempt to escape from the pain of deeper wounds, and it is a dizzy dance of intoxication and indulgence in the privileges of liberty without the gravity of responsibility and humility.

I know from experience that the pain of those deep wounds can be healed, that everyone of us can come to know and feel the truth of our absolute beauty, goodness, and worth, the perfection of Being that is also always becoming. Liberated from the misperceptions and mistaken identities engineered by conditioned shame and primal fear, we will joyfully and soberly embrace responsibility.

No democratic system of evaluation will be even close to perfect. The “most valuable” designations will reflect what is most valuable to the vocal majority. And unless/until the majority recognizes and privileges the values of wisdom, compassion, and truth,
the “hottest” people, content, etc. will offer glamour, hipness, and more superficial appeal over substance and depth and wisdom. The most popular will “win” out over the most sublime. But that is a dilemma built-in to our psyches; zaadz did not create it. I believe that their seed system attempts to acknowledge that difficult fact, build in some safeguards against the tyrannies of groupthink and irresponsible use of one's power, and at the same time entrust us with the power of creating value. And in that process, perhaps we will evolve, learn some things, and our values will deepen to embrace Essence and that which expresses the good, the true, and the beautiful. Perhaps we will empower ourselves via continuous, moment-by-moment, response ability.

Robert Augustus Masters speaks eloquently about trust in this essay. I am stealing some of his lines here:

“For me to trust you means that I, having consistently witnessed your integrity and reliability, have an abiding confidence that you will continue to manifest such qualities. Trust as such is not an a priori stance, but a result. Blind trust is not trust, but rather a cocktail of foolhardiness and hope.

 The deeper our mutual trust, the deeper our relationship can go, so long as that trust is rooted not in naiveté, but in a mutuality that’s anchored in transparency, integrity (or embodied incorruptibility), and love. Trust should not be automatically given; it must be earned…

If I am untrustworthy in certain areas, don’t override your concerns just because I am so wonderful in other ways; don’t let my good points obscure or marginalize my not-so-good points. Relate to me as I am, rather than having a relationship with my trustworthiness potential…

 When we are truly connected, even the arising of disconnection is okay. In fact, trusting each other with our disconnectedness only deepens our mutual trust… 

When it’s time to trust, do so, even if you’re afraid to do so. Better at such times to have trusted and gotten hurt, than not to have trusted.”

Blessings,
Lauren

Thanks for this honest and open post and for all of the work you do for us. I know that your intention is good and most of all… you know that. I hope that you are able to rest in that knowing.

“Intent is not a thought, or an object, or a wish. Intent is what can make a man succeed when his thoughts tell him that he is defeated. It operates in spite of the warrior’s indulgence. Intent is what makes him invulnerable. Intent is what sends a shaman through a wall, through space, to infinity.”

Jake, I'm using my magical powers to hereby re-enchant you, like it or not.
So there ya go.

Jake,

I'm glad I got a chance to read your side.  Actually, it simply confirmed what I believed in my heart all along - that only GOOD intentions were behind this idea.  However, I still don't understand the need that drove the idea.  I have never been aware of the existence of such a need and like many good ideas - the devil lay in the details - in the way it was described, setup, the ramifications personally that were almost immediately evident.

Just as I expect a certain “tone” in my Living Metaphysics pod, I expect a certain “tone” in Zaadz as a whole.  That “tone” is not set by a statistical sampling of whoever bothers to participate.  The “tone” is set by the individual units that make up the whole and I would no more want to control that, than have the power of life and death in my hands. 

In fact, this whole discussion is taking away from me, just that - my ability to really participate in the Zaadz I know and love because I'm concerned like many others regarding the long term effect of your good intentions.

It still seems to me that this idea is meant to boil down statistically, in a computer automated kind of way, the complexity that is the non “average” people that are Zaadz.  Just to come here consciously, to participate consciously, to want to stay here, requires that a person be of a certain bent.  Those who are not, drift away with no action necessary.  Those who are truly disruptive are always found out, are “talked” to, to determine their intent and, I do appreciate, if the intent is totally evil and malicious - got rid of.  However, I caution to add that there is some good in everything that happens within the whole.  Of course, that is the bent of my own personal spiritual philosophy.

Those who feel that “judging” is necessary to somehow elevate the level of discourse are of a different mindset than I am, but as part of my experience of Zaadz, I accept that as “contrast” and will live with, and grow because of, it.

I don't think anyone attacked you personally, it is you who take it personally, just as Siona takes it personally.  You are both so close to the situation that prompted this development that you have difficulty empathisizing with what I believe are valid concerns.

But seeds or no seeds, I will continue to love Zaadz and appreciate the amazing growth it has engendered in me.  There have been other changes like the Shout-Out Wall and Friend's Status that have taken me a while to appreciate but I truly do.  Just today, I suppose in an attempt to spur the participation that someone thinks is lacking at Zaadz, I received an email summary of who of my friends have blogged recently.  I did find that helpful as my time to read blogs is limited and that could make it much more efficient.

I am hoping the energy going to this discussion dies down soon - not that I am helping in the least in that regard - simply because I want to do other things than obsess about this.  Still, I enjoy catching up with old, and at times in rare contact with, friends from Zaadz and meeting new people I've yet to have the pleasure of getting to know.  So, it's been productive in that regard.  Not often does one have access to so many Zaadzsters in one or two places and that is the beauty of the energy this has stirred up and therefore, not a reason for discomfort but for joy.

Wishing you as I always do every one here -

All the best !

Deborah

To Jake, David (3 postings above) and all,

I really appreciated David’s posting of Carlos Casteñeda’s quote on intention––it’s so good for all of us to contemplate and make use of. In spite of my former posting here of not caring for the “Seeds” concept, I wish you well Jake and I’m sorry for what you must be feeling after all your work.

From David’s earlier posting here:

“Intent is not a thought, or an object, or a wish. Intent is what can make a man succeed when his thoughts tell him that he is defeated. It operates in spite of the warrior’s indulgence. Intent is what makes him invulnerable. Intent is what sends a shaman through a wall, through space, to infinity.”

~ Carlos Castañeda

Much Love Jake,
Tony

Hi Jake,

I’ve read your blog but not the comments.

I’ve been and still am not for this seed system.

But I think you should not doubt yourself. Why?

Cause you dared to do something… and there’s a french saying that says: a horse that does not stirr dirt with his feet is not a winner horse!

You know…in the end I have an easy job: I criticize….But could I do something like that? I’m not sure.

Anyway….I’m gonna go on critcizing…..Lol. But please….go on creating…

With love,

Patrick

For Jake:
#69.  A FIGHT

“If a group member wants to fight with you, consider the strategy of the guerrilla commander:

Never seek a fight.  If it comes to you, yield, step back.  It is far better to step back than to overstep yourself.  Your strength is good intelligence: be aware of what is happening. Your weapon is not a weapon at all.  It is the light of consciousness.

Advance only where you encounter no resistance. If you make a point, do not cling to it.  If you win, be gracious.

The person who linitiates the attack is off centre and easilyt hrown.  Even so, have respect for any attacker.  Never surrender your compassion or use your sill to harm another  needlessly.

In any event, the more conscious force will win.

THE TAO OF LEADERSHIP, Lao Tzu's Te Ching adapted for a New Age
John Heider

You have my support and understanding.  I believe you were operating with Right Intention..  My own thought is to let everyone have their say, so they feel they have been heard,  that someone actually listened to their opinion.  And , further, say, “tell me more”, until  it is completeley exhausted and there  is nothing more to say, and things will have become clear and  will  have worked  themselves out naturally, without too many interventions.
This too shall pass.  The beat goes on.
namaste,
mimi

 

Lauren.

Thank you for this.

And Jake. Once more, you're amazing to me. I'm so proud of what you've created here, and ever more proud of how gracefully and patiently and gently you've held the backlash and criticism. The size of your heart and the depth of your compassion is humbling, and I'm so, so grateful to get to work with you. Thank you. Thank you thank you thank you.

Everyone else: I love all of you too. This community is a process, and I hope it never, ever ends.

Hey now!

  It was my second day on this site, when I saw the seed thingy appear. “Cool”, I thought.  Since everything about this site was new, so was the “trust system.”  Really, because I've only been here a short time, I have no strong opinion one way or another about it.  I like the intention behind it, though.
  I noticed a great deal of activity around this issue and checked out a lot of different posts about it.  I hope you can come to some kind of peace surrounding the various reactions this set off, and be able to not take it all so personally.  Name calling aside, I appreciate the lively debate and vigorous discussions.
  For what it's worth, I love this community and I hope to be around it a long time.  Keep the faith, and try not to let the reactions get you down.  I'm having a warm thought for you…
Aaron

I didn't know that changes have already been made. Again, my only concern is really the possibility of having posts deleted (censorship). Other than that I think the seeds thing is pretty cool. The fact that you guys have re-examined and made changes already is very cool and exactly the kind of thing that makes this place great. I'm logging in more just to catch up with it all!

I'm sure Edison made lots of mistakes.

jt

Oh geeze man! That's rough. First to get this out of the way, I like your system, except for the terminology of reputation. Other than that kudos. A succesful anything requires for the bad seeds to be weeded out in order for it to flourish. There are definitely people out there who need to know that what is being said is not appreciated. Take your own case for example. Granted you did something that people didn't like. Everybody does. People then began assaulting you. I could understand if they had commented on the system but it sounds as though they commented on you. Those people are the people exactly that need to be given “bad” seeds.  Unfortunately for these people, the only person failing is themselves( at least from where I am standing). Aggression against another human is a failure. You put forth your hand to help and it was attacked. I commend you for doing what you did. Most people don't really know what they would like to happen. I'm sure many people here at Zaadz understand the real life changes that are happening in the world, and people like you are going to be important to the world.

I was deeply hurt that people on this site inflicted that much pain on you. I hope that you continue to strive to make this a community a better place so that we don't have to hear things like this any more over something as simple as a system that anybody could easily ignore if they wanted to. Not to say it should be, but come on. For a group of people that are super awesome, that's kind of an uptight tactless way to handle a complaint.

Bottom line- thanks for being a real human being who believes people incorrectly causing suffering onto others should be stopped.

Jake, dude, it's nothing personal.  I wasn't attacking anyone in my comments on Sonia's thread.  But my questions were NOT answered, nor were my well thought-out concerns addressed (not a single one of them).  And here is more of the same, those of us who expressed our distaste or had any questions about the seed system were attacked and called names like “neurotic” or “paranoid” or “abused” or “angry” or… shall I go through just this one thread and find all the names we have been called?  Our concerns were completely and totally invalidated rather than being addressed.   And here is more of the same.  You know what?  Our concerns are valid, and our questions remain unanswered still.  I'm sure you had good intentions, but did you ever once stop to question why it is that you should expect your fellow zaadsters to enforce obedience and conformity in this community?  Have you really tried to understand the issues people have with it?  Or are you just glad to see us go?  Nobody ever intended to hurt you or anyone else, we only wanted you all to acknowledge our side of the issue (and I'm still here, waiting to see if that will ever happen).

I am coming in after the storm, and to tell you the truth I am a bit disoriented by it, but I would suggest that the whole thing is a growing pain, and look at the verbiage from an NLP (neurolinguistic programming) standpoint.  I am not surprised to hear that people had a kneejerk reaction to “bad seed”, particularly as (if I may be so bold) many of us here are not exactly mainstream pillars, and may have even, at one time or another, been called that nasty thing.

However… planting seeds, particularly for things we like, is a good thing. Perhaps the system, when tweaked and utilized, may produce a finer garden than allowing it to run wild. Who knows? It is an experiment. If the seeds are healthy and numerous, then they will prevent the weeds from thriving, and we may not have to pull them… fertilize what you desire, rather than trying to poison what you don't want to grow.  It's an organic method.

Personally, I would probably laugh if someone attempted to label me, either good, or bad. I am too old and complicated to be either one, and too tricksy to want to be.

Bless you for your desire to improve the world around you.  Now you know why the wiccan credo is impossible “harm thee none” ;)

I'm sorry, and I love you.

Me  too.

I'm sorry, and I love you.

Me  too.

I'm sorry, and I love you.

Me  too.

I'm sorry, and I love you.

Me too.

I'm sorry, and I love you.

Me  too.

I'm sorry, and I love you.

Me  too.

I'm sorry, and I love you.

Me  too.

I'm sorry, and I love you.

Me  too.

My friend, now you know why religions exist. Most people people want to be led, rather than be responsible for their own actions. You have made the right decision and done a good job, in time it will all calm down and progress can be made, there is pain in change and growth but let it be what it is, because as a Buddhist you know it's all perfection and transient anyways. Observe it. Learn from it. Go to your center and you'll feel the truth.

Namaste,
Marn

friendstacy wrote:
“Jake, dude, it's nothing personal.  I wasn't attacking anyone in my comments on Sonia's thread.  But my questions were NOT answered, nor were my well thought-out concerns addressed (not a single one of them).  And here is more of the same, those of us who expressed our distaste or had any questions about the seed system were attacked and called names like “neurotic” or “paranoid” or “abused” or “angry” or…”

“friend” stacy, I could probably list out a few more names if you'd like……..

My primary objection to your response is that there is a general knee-jerk reaction on the part of those in Zaadz that are reacting from a place of fear towards a team (and a company…yes, that means Gaiam too) that historically and consistently puts “their money where their mouth is” in the spirit of leaving this earth a better place than how we came into it.  You say your response is “well thought-out”?  Try backing up your articulated reponse with the time/energy/intention that went into conceiving AND planning AND writing the lines of code that went into this system.  Why can't you just admit that you are generally pretty damn paranoid about life in general and you have been projecting it on to Zaadz/Gaiam/Gaia.com?  The truth as I see it is that you did NOT put a great deal of thought into your response and now you're attempting to justify your mistakes in judgment.

Why should your ill-developed concerns be addressed if all you've contributed to this dialogue is unexamined projection and cynicism?  How much time do you think the Zaadz/Gaia.com(unity) team really has to focus on your extremely niche concerns, given the practical goals of producing this site?  It takes a lot more than prodigious blogging to be counted as contributor to the cause of stewarding our world toward a situation that we can leave to our children, grandchildren, etc.  You're great at proposing questions; e.g. “What if…?”  I see a lot of finding your Self and your Voice going on.  What I'd like to see out of you is some solutions of the nature and consequence that has been contributed by the individuals on Zaadz team even PRIOR to the Gaiam acquisition.  Yes, I said it: “acquisition” …it's a legitimate business term…those suffering from Boomeritis, get over it already!

I love the perspective of the compassion and love typified by the “right,” “liberals,” and other such terms, but I DO NOT count myself among those ranks as long as they are equally typified by ideologically drifting through life blinder-adorned, while the practically-minded idealists have to deal with the realities of actually executing those beautiful visions.  As for myself, I tend to err on the side of applied theory and, per my modest record to-date, I am not doing too bad of a job at it.

I'd say I was sorry for being so hard on you, but I'm not.  But, please “don't take it personally…”  Just consider yourself standing proxy for your silent supporters that didn't pony up the balls to put themselves out there like you did.  That, at least, I can respect.

The reality is that a lot of what you and others have voiced concern over is very serious, but, in my opinion, your aim is WAY off.  Please, please get out of practice mode in your attacks on Zaadz.com and Gaia.com(unity) and get about the business of using all of these powerful tools that are being implemented in this community so that we can contribute changes to the sphere where your concerns bear legitimacy.  The Zaadz team can either spend their precious energy dealing with the fallout of accusations that have not been subjected to brutally honest self-scrutiny on the part of the accusers, OR they can spend it on making this a better space.  I understand that all of this is part of the process, but how much responsibility do YOU want to take for the substance of YOUR knee-jerk reactions and let our ops team do THEIR job???

Manny

I'm sorry, and I love you.

Me too.

I 'm sorry, and I love you.

Me too.

C'mon Jake…can you feel the love?  Speech…speech!

Just adding a smile.

Jake, I had just signed up with Zaadz a day or two before this all started - and I was so excited!  I can't believe what a cool place you've all created here - and how much I want to be a part of it.

I hear that part of changing the world is dealing with the fact that no matter what you do, if you're making an impact you'll have tons of critics.  Our way is not soft grass…'but it goes upward, forward, towards the sun' - and all along there are people who love and respect you.

I love you and believe in you.  Keep up the great work!

it is said by some that our “gold” is born of our “dark shadows” ( i differentiate “dark shadow” from “shadow” here as there are many who believe, as i do, that most of what we hold in shadow is our gold).  i encourage you to sit with the judgments–especially the ones that trigger the strongest emotional reaction–and consider what shadows of yours may have shown up in your creation.  when you're clear about what your shadows (gold and dark) are, you are better able to come from your gold.

if i might project my stuff here? with regard to your 2nd and 3rd stated intentions above:  2) De-emphasize unhelpful, abusive or negative content, 3) provide a meaningful way of measuring reputation within the community

the road to hell is paved with good intentions…  this is why i believe it to be so important to be aware of my shadows.


i was surprized to see that someone could leave negative marks about me (or more likely, about a comment i might make that triggers something in them).  it struck me that there were few options for positive comments–i thought it was really limiting and limited.  it seemed to me that this system mirrors a hegemonic process of keeping me in line through a fear and shame based system (control through manipulation).  it appears to me to mirror the puntative mindset of our cultural institutions.  it did not appear to me to be in harmony with the intention of what i imagine zaadz to be.  is there something constructive in this for your design process?  is there something in my projection that offers you insight into an aspect of yourself?  (rhetorical here) 

i'll own that i have a strong emotional reaction to the notion of being “measured” in a forum such as this.  i have spent enough of my life not measuring up in one way or another.  besides, on other sites such as youtube, after people receive many negative feedbacks they simply start another account and start from scratch–what's to stop them from doing so here?  perhaps simply placing a block option so that i can block someone if i'm aggregiously offended by them?


thank you for your  efforts and for blessing me with putting yourself out here on this blog!  sharing yourself here means a lot more to me than any buttons or options on a web site you might create…

with metta, tom

I'm sorry and I love you.

Me too.

I'm sorry, and I love you.

Me  too.

I was actually surprised that this was such a big deal. I mean, sure, if you don't want to be a part of the system- then don't. There is always an option to disagree and *not* participate if somehow it goes against your beliefs.  I'm not quite certain, frankly, why there has been such a huge fuss.

Controlling, no. Fascist, hardly. Good intentions, surely.

I'm sorry, and I love you.

Me too.

Jake, thanks for expressing your thoughts and feelings.  I know what it is like to have one's feelings hurt for taking on a leadership role and actually doing something.  Those of us who are thoughtful do tend to over-react to criticism, as a few others have said in this thread.  It is much easier to blather on and on about “being the change” and not do a damn thing.

You have already identified a couple of things you might have done differently.  And I think you are hearing some of the real concerns expressed by equally passionate and thoughtful zaadsters who object to the system.  I'd like to see a period of reflection so that we can all step back and look at what has happened - and continue processing our feelings of frustration and pain.  Many people are suggesting this in many different ways, here.

I love people on all sides of this debate, and I know that things will work out very well.

Peace,

Earon

I'm sorry, and I love you.

Me too.

Jake - I'm sorry, and I love you.

Me too

and Otto - Right on!

Jake,

I'm sorry this is all such a mess.

I love your good intentions but still don't think this system is a good idea …

Sorry.  Love you.

Deborah

For you Jake,
#78.  Soft and Strong

“Water is fluid, soft, and yielding.  But water will wear away rock, which is rigid and cannot yield.  As a rule, whatever is fluid, soft, and yielding will overcome whatever is rigid and hard.

The wise leader knows that yielding overcomes resistances, and gentleness melts rigid defenses.

The leader does not fight the force of the group's energy, but flows and yields and absorbs and lets. go.  A leader must endure a great deal of abuse.  If the leader were not like water, the leader would break.  The ability to be soft makes the leader a leader.  This is another paradox: what is soft is strong.”
-The Tao of Leadership - John Heider

Hang in there.  I have confidence in you ((Jake,))
peace and love
mimi

Jake, I have apologized for disturbing your peace in another venue.  You may feel free to publish my response anywhere. 

Actually, for all you Zaadzters, YOU may publish anything that I write anywhere; I stand behind both my intent and my speech, even when the aforementioned speech is taken out-of-context and used against me.  Though I am not accusing anyone here of doing anything so nefarious, or in my case, frivolous.

Jake, I am genuinely sorry to have caused you pain, but I am not sorry for what I said, not even for my word choice.  I do think that it is childlike and naive to think that trust, or reputation can be measured, evaluated, or quantified in any way.  I see ALL such attempts as youthful exuberance and indiscretion – no matter their intent.

I think it is informative that you chose the word “disenchanted” for the title of this string.  I believe that WE often fall under a kind of spell, or enchantment when WE are working on something and when WE strongly believe that it will benefit everyone, or bring great good.

Villains probably fall under a similar kinds of enchantment – for opposite reasons.  It is said that “tyrants ever claim necessity,” but some tyrants probably just chug along under good intentions.  MY intentions mean nothing, except in failure, and then only add value as extenuating circumstances.  In my personal case, I usually call these “excuses.”

Being disenchanted is not necessarily a bad thing.  Being disabused of any of the many illusions that I operate under is probably good for me.  The more I awake from MY slumber, the better I can see myself, or I could just ask Manny to point out what is wrong with me, as he did, so rudely, with Stacy earlier.

In your post, you say, “Yet I have been called a 'controller', a 'fascist', had someone call me 'boy' (I hope I left that stage decades ago) …”

As I said in my email to you, I am the fella that called you “boy,” sort of, because your presentation here does not fit the context, intent, or spirit that I spoke from. 

My exact statement was, “Jake, I mean you no disrespect.  I'm sure you are a very nice boy.  I can see by your post that you mean well and that the road to seeds was paved with good intentions.  I don't believe that WE, any of US, are competent to judge what is respectful – when it is not obvious.” at the start of a much longer post about my experience with another so-called trust system at Omidyar.net.

As I said in my email, I wanted to make the point that there are nice people in the World and that I believe that YOU are one of THEM “nice people.”

I am not a nice person.  I do not play nice.  I do not intend to learn how to play nice.  Some days, I am nicer than other days, and I even occasionally do nice things, but being nice is not high on my list of priorities, or values.  I love a great many nice people, but the majority of those I love are not thought to be nice by any measure.

I represent a demographic that WE sorely need to listen to at this time IF WE ever want to have anything remotely resembling social equality and peace.

Just like your post, Jake, MY post was sincere, and I felt informative of MY own view. 

I do not see how saying, “Jake, I mean you no disrespect.  I'm sure you are a very nice boy.” can be interpreted as an ad hominem attack, although I know that I too can take umbrage at nearly any comment depending on the speaker, the time of day, or what color shirt I am wearing.  I am not very mature about taking offense.

Or about giving it – come to think of it.

I do believe “that you [and all your fellow Zaadsters] mean well.”  I also still believe “that  the road to seeds was paved with good intentions.”  Unfortunately, I also feel that none of US “are competent to judge what is respectful – when it is not obvious.”

Except for maybe Manny.

i also believe that the “trust system” will intimidate and alienate the one young woman, or too shy fella, who needs to be heard the most.  Just like lunch room cliques keep the still small Voice from being heard in most instances, WE risk that loss here, when WE begin to evaluate the speech of Others indiscriminately.

Lastly, I would like to say that I do love you, Jake and Manny as well, although I had to squeeze that last bit out.  By loving you I do not mean anything mystical, metaphysical, or romantic.  MY dictionary says love is “unconditional positive regard.”  I hold you and all the work that you have done in “unconditional positive regard.” 

Okay, Manny too, but that's a stretch – for me. – IF anyone can hear that qualifier.

I am not seeking forgiveness, or understanding: Here, or anywhere else on this little green ball.  I am certain of who I am and of what I do – for good and for ill.

I do send you peace hope and love.  Very sincerely, RicHARD Makepeace

Jake, I am confused about a comment I've read.  Please help.

The commenter wrote something that assumed people holding no current seeds would have their voice eliminated.  This doesn't seem to be part of the system you proposed, because it appeared that there was a different mechanism that collected the information to be used to determine whether our voice would be magnified (or relatively reduced) on Zaadz.  If the above fear  is a misinterpretation of how your system would work, please help all of us caught in the middle of this flare-up – and clarify that again.

I can imagine that you are currently “gun-shy” about discussing the system, and may not want to get into the details of how peoples voices are enhanced, so I will not take your silence for anything other than your needing time to process this situation.  I, like most of us out here, feel that there is positive potential in your system, and am grateful for the opportunity to engage in discussion about the nature and constraints of what we do on Zaadz.  Please be patient as this quirky, sometimes cranky, collective goes through its fits and starts.

With sincere respect (and love, too),

Earon

Manny, you know absolutely nothing about me.  It is not your place to call me names, my state of mental health is not the issue.  Your attacks are nothing but diversions, avoidance, and flat-out lies, and cause me absolutely no pain.  Rather, I find it most amusing that you can say any of those things seriously without knowing the first thing about me.  Anyone here can visit my websites and see exactly what I am about.  I sing my song openly and honestly and with no intention of hurting anyone.  Why do you wish to harm me?

http://friendstacy.blogspot.com/2007/10/you-dont-know-me-very-well-do-you.html

Stacy, it is my place to take any actions for which I am prepared to be accountable.  Causing you pain is not my intention unless it is painful for you to look at your self.  I actually spent about an hour on your myspace and blogspot pages prior to posting my comment.  I'm sure there is much more to learn about you, but I learned enough to feel comfortable writing to you as I did.

Nothing you said about me hurt me because none of it is true.  Attacks on character are a logical fallacy.  You know what a logical fallacy is? 
ad hominem - “The other type of ad hominem argument is a form of genetic fallacy. Arguments of this kind focus not on the evidence for a view but on the character of the person advancing it; they seek to discredit positions by discrediting those who hold them. It is always important to attack arguments, rather than arguers, and this is where ad hominems fall down.” www.logicalfallacies.info

Friendstacy,

Without knowing ANYTHING about anything that has been posted since I last did.  I just want to say - I treasure and cherish you and I hope you will stick it out and hang in there for the good of the community.  We do need thoughtful voices such as yours.  You have placed yourself on the hotseat here because of the geniune depth of your concern.  You speak for many who feel outside the norm, beyond the mainstream, totally unique and independent and that is precisely what I and so many others have been fighting for here.

Now, I don't know if it is necessary to say this - but at this point, you do have several options before you - such as to continue fighting, continue being the contrast that helps others assess their own points of view, you could give up and I for one certainly do not want you to.  Please though, step back, if necessary.  Re-read, if necessary, all of the posts and comments and consider carefully your next response.

My wish for you, and I am totally aware that it may not be your wish for your self, is that the calm rule of reasonable logic and clarity will come forth from you in your next post.  You matter.

Deborah

Deborah, I think your words are wise and helpful.

Friendstacy, you're wonderful, intelligent, honest and open.  Manny, you raise useful points, and express yourself with passion, but I think criticisms are out of line in this context when they interpret people's emotions or thought processes.  Feels like flaming to me - like latching onto someone you disagree with and doing a death spiral  - rather than communicating with them as a member of your community. 

Peace,

Earon

I am still not disenchanted. I believe in this community and our collective power to create positive change. Perhaps we can put this into perspective.

I really believe in this community and that everyone here wants to be the change, whatever that might mean personally, and at whatever level of development we are currently at. And, I'm not implying I am above everyone. I'm excited about my own development and growing through this with everyone here.

I love what Ryan wrote:
Jake, I had just signed up with Zaadz a day or two before this all started - and I was so excited!  I can't believe what a cool place you've all created here - and how much I want to be a part of it.

I hear that part of changing the world is dealing with the fact that no matter what you do, if you're making an impact you'll have tons of critics.  Our way is not soft grass…'but it goes upward, forward, towards the sun' - and all along there are people who love and respect you.

I love you and believe in you.  Keep up the great work!

I love you all and believe in you. We created and joined this community to create something positive, but also something that helps us grow. We're challenging each other here, and may occasionally find ourselves caught in delusion, and that's fine, it may even be good, but we're here to create something positive, even though we have different ideas about how to do it. We can explore those and build better ideas.

As for the Zaadz team, we're willing to change and grow and to be challenged. I hold an extraodinary amount of respect for the team and members of this community. We're in this together. Let's keep our eyes on the prize.

I note the conversation here has mostly settled down, most having said all they have to say.  I have not been totally away from the conversation, however.  I have kept an open mind to various arguments, in private emails with Siona, at Lauren's blog and in a related way within the improving.us pod.  I have contemplated much and arrived at my own conclusions, which seemed to have settled as well. 

When I see the seeds build up in my own account, I do scatter them around but find them utterly bothersome and time consuming.  While they may increase my activity and interaction with others at Zaadz, I have not changed my core belief that they do NOT improve the level of discourse, the spiritual opportunities nor my own personal growth, through my presence here at Zaadz.

I have summed up much of my own feelings at my personal blog.  Most recently, John O, made this comment -

Your blog Deborah is the clearest and least hysterical I've seen on this topic…

There is little more to add for me apart from asking how practically to ask for the whole idea to be dropped. How to ask this with such quiet empowerment that the necessary removal of the seed-system would immediately be understood and accepted for the Truth it is.

I, for my part, intend to visualize the seed-idea as “vanished into thin air” and the groups of people helping to administer this site enveloped in love and gratitude.

If you are feeling less than enchanted, and not convinced as well, I invite you to join us.  I know not what the critical mass would be, but this is the path of gentle resistance, which takes place entirely in mind.  Let us shift to the alternate reality and maintain the superior qualities that existed immediately before.

Finally, just this morning, in doing a 4 card relationship spread at the Osho Zen Tarot website, I drew the card titled ”ONE seed makes the Whole Earth Green” which states why I see this exercise of “rating” each other as dangerous -

Society cannot tolerate individuality, because individuality will not follow like a sheep. Individuality has the quality of the lion; the lion moves alone. The sheep are always in the crowd, hoping that being in the crowd will feel cozy. Being in the crowd one feels more protected, secure. If somebody attacks, there is every possibility in a crowd to save yourself. But alone? - only the lions move alone.

And every one of you is born a lion, but the society goes on conditioning you, programming your mind as a sheep. It gives you a personality, a cozy personality, nice, very convenient, very obedient. Society wants slaves, not people who are absolutely dedicated to freedom. Society (community?) wants slaves because all the vested interests want obedience.”

We each have much to be grateful for in simply being in the physical life at this time.  This includes what I believe is a pivotal and transitional experience in being a part of Zaadz.  I am so very blessed to have made the acquaintance of several fine people as a result of this Seed discussion - you know who you are.

Happy Thanksgiving to those of you in the US,

Deborah

“There is little more to add for me apart from asking how practically to ask for the whole idea to be dropped. How to ask this with such quiet empowerment that the necessary removal of the seed-system would immediately be understood and accepted for the Truth it is. ”

while I agree with every sentiment expressed above by Deb, I feel this bears repeating.

it doesn't matter, see, what we want or know is right.  What matters to the decision makers at zaadz is that they more effectively target their ads so the advertisers make more money.  The members are not individual humans, they are a means to an end, the end being making buckets of money at the expense of the site's integrity.  Almost everyone who drew me here to zaadz has already left.  I'm still here, barely, but I do feel marginalized and outcast, I feel that my voice doesn't count, my questions still remain unanswered and my concerns unaddressed.  I do not and will not be led to believe that the good of the group outweighs the good for each individual member of the group.

“Treat humanity, whether yourself or another, as an end in itself and not only as a means.”
- Immanuel Kant

Jake, your comments were not directed at me but I do want to be clear about the points I am trying to make.  I do not accuse your or Siona of malicious intent.  I do not even know if this Seed or Trust system was your idea, the Team's idea or if you just did what you were asked to do.  In fact, the point I am trying to make has little to do with intent, though I will address possible intents.

First, revenue - not greed.  While this site may seem to exist in thin air, I do not think it can exist without financial support.  I do not doubt that alot of consideration is given to who is allowed to advertise and how they are allowed to advertise, both to maintain the tone and quality of the community and due to the sophistication of the audience here and its sensibilities.  I am a business person and understand such realities.  That the data you may collect - either with or without our knowledge - could be used for such purposes is the decision of the site's owner and its managment and that is your right in exchange for providing this community space.

Second, management of members and content.  This is also the right of the site's owner and management.  It is only the right of the community in the sense that, if it is too unfair or the application of such is too heavy, the community would either stagnate or dissipate in response.  I completely accept and believe in the right of management to decline some people for membership and control some kinds of content on the site, for the overall good and again quality and tone of the community.  I am not recommending here a NO HOLDS BARRED kind of free-for-all freedom of expression here.

Now, I want to get real myself about why I object and where my objections are of concern to me.  I came to Zaadz because they advertised on the back of the Science of Mind magazine.  Science of Mind is a metaphysical philosophy described by a man named Ernest Holmes.  The month that I began my Living Metaphysics pod, the founder of Zaadz - Brian Johnson - was featured in the magazine and  he described the impact that philosophy had on his thinking.  Therefore, it is my belief that, as the creator of this site, he drew here a certain quality of individual that is not the norm or average in the world at large but something a little more spiritually mature than that.

That is why I am concerned about and object to the seeds.  For one thing, I do not need them to appreciate a person or a comment - this is just automating the ability to categorize.  I find them time consuming and bothersome but I will do whatever with them, if they continue to exist.  I will admit that yesterday, in my sacred place, I gathered them up, threw them into the wind and hope they vanished but if they did not, if they continue to circulate around, I will participate, even though I personally do not want to.  Only because I am a member of the community.

I am going to try one more analogy because I do not believe it is too late to affect the visibility and usage of the system created by your code.  Imagine a pool of nutritious, stimulating and growth encouraging matter.  Making up this pool is 100,000 organisms.  They interact with each other however they may chose to do, consume whatever they want to consume, throw up anything that doesn't agree with them and thrive.  They thrive so well that they achieve a kind of exponential critical mass and engender a cultural shift that is a gentle and positive event.  This is the potential that exists in Zaadz and has existed up until the point you wrote the code and this system was established for WHATEVER reasons you and the Team decided to do it.

Now, imagine this same pool of organisms - there are walls, some nutrients necessary for that exponential growth are removed for the good of the organisms by some all knowing keeper who has determined that they know best what all 100,000 of them need and now “currents” have been established in the pool, so that the organisms are encouraged to go only in certain directions and are no longer totally free in their interactions.  Large quantities of organisms pool up in certain locations and are given specialized attention, while others languish in backwaters and receive none.  This is what I believe the system, as I understand it, will accomplish.  I am not saying that was the intent, I am saying that is where I sense it will go.  This is not a paranoid imagining, this is the wisdom and experience of my life and being trying to speak to you, for whatever it is worth and I recognize that it may not be worth much at all in the end.

I want to be utterly clear about this.  I can exist as a lion in a community of sheep.  I even promise not to eat any.  Sheep are my friends (to borrow a phrase from Finding Nemo).  So, if this is not the spiritually, high-minded community of lions that I believe Brian Johnson envisioned but for whatever reasons, even if those reasons are for management or revenue or the overall inclination of the community, there is a need to homogenize what is here by telling everyone here what is of value - I will still be able to flow around it by my own inner guidance, to what I need and want to learn, and ignore your recommendations of where you think I should go and what I should be interested in and who I should associate with.  I will simply ignore that part of it.  your system does not impact my ability to do so, but I remain concerned that given such “guidance”, through the software application as it has been presented to us, those lions who have been attracted here, who could have achieved a new level of being, may miss that opportunity, chasing the popularity ideal that this software application encourages.  It is my personal belief that this community will not achieve the potential that existed immediately before this was implemented.

I end this discussion with this disclaimer.  Everything I have said here is my personal opinion and really does not matter one bit, unless the reader of it understands and believes that what I've written is important to them personally as well.

Wishing you all the best, however you find that -

Deborah

…wow Jake ! …you got some friends bro !…I think I missed most of the storm …I saw nothing wrong…it seemed like an innocent way to get people involved…I took to it naturally…I saw I had some seeds…the normal thing is to sow them…give them away…
  …in Roma culture a man's wealth was counted by how much had flowed through them…not by how much they gathered…
  …a little dissent is a good thing sometimes…it motivates people to get moving …I think it is safe to dissent here at zaadz because there is an underlying frequency of Love and acceptance…we are all drawn together here for purposes that are not always apparent…but there is a purpose for these connections…I honor this…

…I Am not sorry…
   and I Love you all so much…